Quality standards

[elarbee]

Для меня не приемлемо понятие "плохонький, но свой." Я люблю своего мужа потому что он, вообще-то, замечательный человек. Я люблю Америку потому что мне здесь действительно хорошо. Да, есть изъяны и в том и в другом, но у меня хоть нет диссонанса. А когда женщины любят алкоголиков которые их избивают и защищают и воспевают "родины" в которых жить объективно хреново (и на бытовом и на идеологическом уровне) только потому что "свое"... я не считаю это большим умом.

Comments

[elarbee.livejournal.com]

Two separate topics. As for your friend, I can see why she's doing that. However, I also have a lot of friends in the Ukraine who love their country and love living there, but they don't sing patriotic songs and analyze their government and situation as objectively as they can. They are either trying to do something from within, or they realize that they can't and do look at the positives, without singing hosanna to them.

As for wives of Russian alcoholics... I believe divorce is legal. If they think they can't do so for financial reasons, they may not have thoroughly considered all their options.

[royal-penguin.livejournal.com]

К алкоголику тоже можно привязаться. Особенно если алкоголиком он стал не сразу. По–разному бывает.
И с разводом тоже не везде и всегда все просто. Есть еще и жилищный вопрос, и элементарный страх, и просто слабость. Резкие движения не каждому легко даются. Опять же привязанность––страшная штука. Кто–то может развернуться на 180 градусов, а кто–то нет.

Мне вообще эта тема очень интересна, так как я всегда была склонна осуждать людей. Мне очень запомнилась вот эта выдержка из The Great Gatsby:

In my younger and more vulnerable years my father gave me some advice that I've been turning over in my mind ever since. "Whenever you feel like criticizing any one," he told me, "just remember that all the people in this world haven’t had the advantages that you’ve had."

:)

[elarbee.livejournal.com]

You're right, but I'm judging from my колокольня. I was a different person back in the day, and I realized that I wasn't a very good person and I worked on changing that. This is where my statements about self-analysis come in. I think everyone with a basic set of knowledge and level of mental health is capable of self-analysis, and thereby, of changing their lives for the better, should they wish to.

[royal-penguin.livejournal.com]

Your position in the Maslow pyramid (speaking metaphorically) is very different from that of those poor Russians. Changing from a "not very good person" to "a better one" is not the same as changing your entire life and marital status. You and I have to remember that we have had the *luxury* of self–analysis. Yes, it is a luxury that one can afford when one is not too busy dealing with a booze hound husband and absence of hot water in the shower.

[elarbee.livejournal.com]

Yes, I agree that it is a luxury. But I have no other point of view than my own to judge from.

[royal-penguin.livejournal.com]

Yes, the ability to even try to put yourself in somebody else's shoes is a talent–––or an acquired skill. I am trying to learn it from my husband and my best friend-–both are the least judgmental people I have ever known.

[elarbee.livejournal.com]

Well, OK, an important point here is that to a great extent, I'm choosing to be judgmental.

[royal-penguin.livejournal.com]

I would say that that particular choice is also a luxury that you have enjoyed. Especially when it comes to judging disadvantaged Russians. :)

I am choosing to limit my judgmental efforts and direct them towards people that are in a position comparable to mine.

[elarbee.livejournal.com]

I can see that.

[vremyavpered.livejournal.com]

+многа

[elarbee.livejournal.com]

I thought of another thing. Yes, there are plenty of people in this world who are stuck in a shitty circumstance and they can not change it, and they have other things to worry about then self-actualization. However, in this scenario, it would still bother me if they say that they *like* their shitty circumstance. I think that's the main gist of what I was trying to say.

[royal-penguin.livejournal.com]

Why?? Why would it bother you so much?

That is, again, a coping mechanism. Besides, those people may not even have a concept of anything better than what they are used to.
Любить можно и плохого мужа, и некомфортную родину. И можно любить не за что–то ("замечательный человек"), а просто за то, что свое–родное. Как ребенка. :)

[elarbee.livejournal.com]

It would bother me because I think that it's either A. dishonest (to themselves first and foremost) OR B. in blatant denial of reality.

I also think the attachment to a child is different to that of a man or a country.

Strictly IMHO, all of this.

[royal-penguin.livejournal.com]

So? :) Why is honesty so important in this particular matter? It is totally ok to be dishonest to yourself if it helps you get through life in your shitty circumstances. Again, truth–seeking in another luxury best enjoyed in the comfort of the top of the Maslow pyramid. :)
There's no point asking people to admit that their life is shit UNLESS you are out there really trying to help them. Otherwise it's just rhetoric.

It is different, I agree, I was just saying that it is possible to love someone/something "in spite of x/y/z".

[elarbee.livejournal.com]

Well, then we can chalk this up to my personal бзик. Honesty about one's own circumstance is something that is important to me, yes, probably because of my position on top of this pyramid. But nevertheless, it is important enough to me to voice my discontent when it is not so.

[royal-penguin.livejournal.com]

It is easy to be honest when your circumstance is a USA citizenship, comfortable house and a nice sober husband (most of which, as I always keep reminding myself, is pure luck rather than personal achievement).
Voicing your discontent (for whatever reason) is a) totally safe b) might bring improvement. Not to mention that you would be voicing your discontent about certain relatively minor parts of your life, not 99.9% of it.
For a person whose life is awful, what is the point of saying it out loud? Where do they go from there, to the noose? And even if they know it themselves they may not necessarily want to admit to it other people, especially luckier ones. Which is also understandable.

[elarbee.livejournal.com]

Do you think every such situation is so completely hopeless that nothing could be done about it, were the person to admit to themselves how bad it really is?

[royal-penguin.livejournal.com]

Когда речь идет стране проживания––да, сменить ее довольно сложно. Люди, о которых мы тут развели дебаты, обычно об этом и не мечтают. Жизнь такая засасывает, как болото.

Развернуться на 180 градусов по силу очень и очень немногим.

То же самое с мужьями, даже еще сложнее. Ведь алкаш может быть и не всегда был алкашом. Спиваются люди тоже по разным причинам. А надежда, как известно, умирает последней.
Вот люди и выбирают пути наименьшего сопротивления, те самые coping mechanisms.

"Умно" ли это? Нет, конечно. Но не всем же быть умными.








This conversation is so painfully similar to another one I just had with a relative of mine. She brought up the african americans from the ghettos. How come, she said, so few of them make an effort to get education and strive for better life.

[elarbee.livejournal.com]

"Умно" ли это? Нет, конечно. Но не всем же быть умными.

That was partially my point.

Look, as I said, I know it can be hard to leave a crappy country or husband. And I know they have to cope, but I don't necessarily think that they defending their situation is the thing to do.

As for African Americans... I wouldn't be surprised if many of them suffer from the same affliction as our former countrymen. Others may have entitlement issues: when I was working for the Census, I found out that many, many people live in the projects for generations and receive so many social services that they probably feel they are doing just fine and changing their lives would not be a worthwhile effort. (Actually, this extends to residents of projects of all races.) Also not the smartest move in my book, but just like wives of alcoholics, they make choices.

As for imagining a better life... On one hand, it's hard to believe that even the lowest rungs of society aren't exposed to at least TV if not the internet in our day and age. On the other, if they don't feel they deserve a better life, then that's a psychological issue.

[royal-penguin.livejournal.com]

TV, internet, teachers–––all these things amount to nothing if there's no good family environment. Psychological issues are not commonly addressed in the lower classes of society. Digging in your psychological problems is yet another luxury that not everyone can afford.

As for being "умным"––a lot of that ум has to do with how one was raised and the advantages one has had. Certain privileges lead to a greater ум. Нельзя быть уверенным, что все умники были бы такими же умными, если бы им не посчастливилось родиться и расти в менее благоприятных условиях.

[elarbee.livejournal.com]

I think I've reached a point in this conversation where I agree with everything you said in your comment above this one, yet to my mind, it doesn't negate my earlier conviction. I'm hoping that's not self-contradictory. I'm not saying this just to end the topic, BTW.

[ele-ele.livejournal.com]

Видишь ли, люди, живущие где-то там за чертой, - женщины, которых колотят мужья-алкоголики, - они, возможно, сами из таких семей вышли и другой жизни не знают. Интернета никакого у них нет, а что касается телевизора... Видела бы ты, что показывают по русскому телевизору.
Конечно, есть женщины-жены алкоголиков и не в таких кошмарных бытовых условиях, я знала несколько, они не разводились по религиозным соображениям. Не потому, что Бог не одобряет развод, а потому, что им было жалко мужей и они были готовы этот крест нести. Мне лично такой подход не очень импонирует, но такое мировосприятие существует.
Ну, и наконец, огромное количество людей по несколько лет работает с психотерапевтом, чтобы развестись. И некоторым из них приходится дойти до очень нехороших ситуаций, прежде чем они обратились за помощью. У них тоже ума нет?

[elarbee.livejournal.com]

I understand that. I know it may be very difficult or impossible to get out of such a bad situation, as well as to perceive just how bad of a situation it is. My very narrow point was that I don't like or get why these people defend their bad situation. Granted, that may be part of their defense mechanism, but I don't think that's healthy. As I noted in my first reply, maybe ум wasn't the best term to use.

[royal-penguin.livejournal.com]

And you know, this conversation is painfully similar to the one I recently had with a relative of mine. She brought up the poor african americans from ghettos. How come, she said, so few of them are trying to get education and change their lives?

It's just a very naive way of looking at things. I didn't know how to explain to her that what seems easy to her––a daughter of doctors–––may not be as obvious to a black kid who's never heard proper English in his entire life.

A person stuck in shitty life may not even have a concept of a better life.

[royal-penguin.livejournal.com]

Sorry, stupid LJ posted my comment prematurely.