elarbee: (Default)
[personal profile] elarbee
Это такое очень советское и пост-советское понятие. Вне этих стран, сообщить главному, начальнику, полицейскому или другому ответственному человеку нормально. Часто, это единственное нормальное решение. Нарушать правила нецелесообразно и эти нарушения вредят не только нарушителю а обществу. Разбираться между собой чаще не способствует решению проблемы.

Приведу пример. Когда я только что приехала в Америку, я пошла в школу в плохом районе. Я там была не только единственная русскоязычная, но и почти единственный белый человек. Из-за недопонимания между культурами, меня регулярно обижали. Ну и что, думала я, это надо пережить, в советской школе меня тоже всегда обижали, и учителя мне говорили что надо не жаловаться, а самой разбираться. А в Америка моя counselor (школьный психолог, что ли?) увидила что меня обижают, наказала агрессоров и объяснила мне, что ее работа - мне помочь. Она также объяснила некоторые культурные ньюансы и я стала намного лучше общаться. Это самый яркий, таких примеров у меня много.

И вот один пример обратного. Я недавно переводила в одной большой международной организации - у них было двое русских партнеров которые между собой не ладили, не важно почему. Один из них уже давно работал там, и со многими "западными" специалистами, он при разговоре не присутствовал. А тот который присутствовал, работал там всего пару лет. У него были и другие "совковые" черты которые негативно отражались на его работе, но в тот момент обсуждался между ним и его начальником именно конфликт с этим коллегой. И вот, начальник очень вежливо просил этого чувака не продолжать конфликт, ибо он плохо влияет на рабочую атмосферу. Он просил чувака не общаться с "врагом", и в следующий раз, если ему не нравится как что-то происходит, сообщить начальнику. Я и видила как он ерзал и всеми фибрами души сопротивлялся этой мысли, этому стукачеству, мол, он сильный и умный, сам разберется. Начальник-то не первый день с бывшесоветскими работает, он в курсе, он знал что подчеркивать.

Да, и модераторам я жалуюсь. И мне как модератору жалуются, и правильно, система работает.

Date: 2012-04-13 06:17 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] purple-monkey.livejournal.com
Просто стукачество это одно, а справедливость или вислблоуинг это другое.
Стукачества в Америке тоже полно.
Стукачество, это когда ты кому-то не нравишся, и человек ищет повод сделать тебе гадость. У тебя, к примеру, ребёнок выполз за калитку в те 30 секунд, которые ты мыла руки. И сразу человек звонит в сошал сервисес. То есть если это чей-то ещё ребёнок, человек бы не позвонил, но вот именно ты его раздражаешь. В таком ключе примерно.

Date: 2012-04-13 06:19 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] elarbee.livejournal.com
Hm. This is more nuanced than I was thinking. My assessment was far less specific.

Date: 2012-04-13 07:26 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] prolefa.livejournal.com
а я никак не могу провести параллели между стукачеством и интернетом. Тут же всегда кто-то неправ, идиотов 95%, вступать с ними в бой на равных глупо, пытаться призвать к порядку -- наивно. Прибавим сюда просто миссандерстендинг, что тоже вполне фактор, пишем буковками, смысл вкладываем разный, словом владеем не всегда точно. В моем сообществе редко возникают конфликты, у нас какой-то идеальный цветник, но когда возникают, обычно люди между собой решают или если я вижу, как-то развожу. Но пару раз мне все же жаловались, я принимала меры, и при этом все равно внутри сидела мысль -- ну что же ты от меня хочешь, дева, мы же в интернете. То есть мое личное мнение -- тут каждый должен научиться защищаться, иначе будут обижать все, кому не лень.

Date: 2012-04-13 04:33 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] elarbee.livejournal.com
I agree with you, overall. But some people aren't smart enough to realize that and they will never be able to solve their problems on their own, it will just descend into bigger and bigger срач. Me, I know that the overwhelming majority of the people are idiots, but I also believe that rules make a better society. Maybe I'm just too idealistic, but I want to teach others that lesson, too. Of course, I constantly get burned on this, for example, with my mother, but I do keep trying.

Date: 2012-04-13 06:23 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] prolefa.livejournal.com
Ну, правильно говоришь. Я вот просто сдалась уже как-то реагировать на чужих мне людей, инвестирую лишь в родных, и то не всегда... Но пока есть силы, это отличная стратегия.

Date: 2012-04-13 08:25 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] elarbee.livejournal.com
Well, I only really react if it's in my community or is directed at me.

Date: 2012-04-13 07:56 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ujanus.livejournal.com
Да, блин, задолбала уже эта русская тема, что "стучать западло". Я понимаю, если бы это от дедов мы слушали бы. Да даже от поколения родителей. Но это же и молодёжь перенимает.

В итоге везде срач и нарушения не только потому, что полиции и управам наплевать (а это тоже есть), но и потому, что они часто просто не знают, что что-то надо исправлять.

Мне, на самом деле, тоже непросто жаловаться! Но я вытравляю из себя эту дурь! =)

Date: 2012-04-13 04:34 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] elarbee.livejournal.com
It is a smart person who can analyze and try to root out such things in himself!

Date: 2012-04-13 04:55 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ujanus.livejournal.com
That's a tough thing to do!

It took me a year to start writing complains and I still didn't stat to write to police about problems on roads and policemen not controlling people driving on shoulders and turning from a second line.

Date: 2012-04-13 04:56 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] elarbee.livejournal.com
And how were your complaints received?

Date: 2012-04-13 04:58 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ujanus.livejournal.com
They were declined =)
But some changes happened afterwards - that's how strange Russian system works =)

But I continue to complain! =)

Date: 2012-04-13 05:00 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] elarbee.livejournal.com
Exactly. Freaks. Like they think it will get them anywhere.

I haven't seen a single policy in Russia (albeit, I don't follow it as closely lately) that would actually improve the country's chances for survival. And I mean that in a very basic, geopolitical and demographic sense.

Date: 2012-04-13 05:12 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ujanus.livejournal.com
I still have some hope, that everything should be ok. Somehow. Eventually.

Date: 2012-04-13 05:12 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] elarbee.livejournal.com
Yeah... until I see a "how" in there, I'm not convinced.

Date: 2012-04-13 09:20 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] meylersha.livejournal.com
все же есть стукачество и есть "исполнение долга". Если соседи бьют ребенка, то надо позвонить в соц.службы и это не стукачество. А вот если соседи вызовут те же службы, потому что я ругаясь с ребенком, а они хотят мне насолить, это стукачество. э
Или вот еще нюанс, где стукачество, а где жалоба. У дочки в школе, часто, кто первый "пожалуется" или "настучит", тот и прав. Конечно это не в важных вещах, а обычно всякие дрязги на переменках, но щто все равно учит быть первым.

Date: 2012-04-13 04:43 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] elarbee.livejournal.com
Of course it's all subjective. But that's why you talk to someone who is supposedly higher-up in the food chain and it's up to them to figure out if the complaint is valid. Whenever I've been in charge, I've received lots of invalid complaints. Yes, the CPS example you give is tough, and many investigations are conducted on perfectly fine parents and waste time and resources. But I wouldn't want to take the chance to miss the one case out of hundreds.

Date: 2012-04-13 07:09 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] khleba.livejournal.com
Какую ты интересную тему подняла!
Мне к счастью не доводилось никогда жаловаться будучи уже взрослым человеком. Но вот в детстве было пару ситуаций, про которые я сейчас думаю, что взрослые слишком поздно вмешивались, потому что дети все молчали. И это ведь было нормально, наше воспитание такое было

Date: 2012-04-13 08:26 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] elarbee.livejournal.com
But that's the thing, just because we were raised this way, doesn't mean it's "normal" or "good" or anything else positive. I can find a lot of negative things (specifically, in my upbringing) that were considered the norm, yet they are not good and I hope I don't continue to have contact with or perpetuate such actions or philosophies.

Date: 2012-04-13 07:32 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] milady-winter.livejournal.com
You're forgetting that in Russian society the term stems from prison jargon and has very specific meaning. "Stuchat'" means to maliciously share information with prison authorities about your peers (oftentimes provoking them in breaking rules) in order to obtain special favors for self and/or punish/pay back peers. Stukachi are on special terms in Russian prisons. They are awarded, yet despised by prison authorities, and are hated by peers. The usual punishment for "stukachestvo" is death and is rather common in Russian prison general population.

This phenomenon developed further in Russian post-revolutionary society, after huge general amnesty of 1919. Thief’s, murderers, rapists, robbers were released back into society as "victims of old tsar regime", while "political convicts" were held back.
Fast-forward: this has been repeating fairly regularly over the 20th century, thus producing society of peasants and prisoners, with just a touch of so-called aristocracy or upper society (which was forced to mask any flair of good manners and normal inter-personal skills).
In mid-20th century, and later, neighbor would "stuchat'" on neigbor, friend on friend - again - oftentime provoking - in order to obtain special favors or to be on the "good account" with local authorities. It became far less shameful as everybody did that.
That conveniently transformed into publicly accusing of "stukachestvo" ANYONE who informed authorities of a crime, called in a case of authority breaking rules, etc. - which in normal, non prison-inherited society is a normal thing - to call in a crime or to make sure those who break rules and laws are stopped.

Yet, the general phenomenon of "stukachestvo" never changed fundamentally - it is still a case of vindictive and malicious reporting of other's "bad behavior" to authorities in order to obtain personal favors, promote self or plain "payback" out of envy, malice or boredom.
Edited Date: 2012-04-13 07:33 pm (UTC)

Date: 2012-04-13 08:28 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] elarbee.livejournal.com
I'm not forgetting it, I get it. There are many societal and social behaviors that modern post-Soviets inherited from Sovok and I know they are really hard to get rid of. Yet, to join the civilized world, they'd have to. That's why I'm saying that this is a Russian phenomenon, but when post-Soviet comes to another country, he can't expect that this value and connotation can be applied to Western society and civilization. Much like many other concepts.

Date: 2012-04-14 01:24 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] map-ka.livejournal.com
Nope, not a distinctly Russian phenomenon. More like a symptom of an overall distrust to authority, and, unfortunately, it's not quite baseless.

Guess where in NY snitches get stitches? Brighton Beach it isn't.

Date: 2012-04-14 02:06 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] elarbee.livejournal.com
Well, I know that there is a no snitching culture in places like the projects, and you're right it's an overall distrusting of authority that's at the root of this. Let's say that those cases are excepted and we're talking about something a lot less nefarious. What I'm saying is that it's one of those cultural traits that doesn't work very well in the Western world and if people want to live as part of this society, having that mindset will impede their function.

Date: 2012-04-14 04:56 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] map-ka.livejournal.com
Again, which Western world we are talking about? I have friends living in different Brooklyn neighborhoods and I think it would fascinate a cultural anthropologist to analyze where and what kind of unpermitted work on a house would or wouldn't be reported. There are places with live and let live attitude, and then there are places where carrying a bucket of paint will have the neighbors dialing Dept. of buildings pronto.

My brother and I are on the boards of our respective coops, and I have to tell you, in the eyes of the [quite Western] boards, the tenants/ prospective purchasers who logged too many complaints at their previous residence are a problem and better be avoided.

Date: 2012-04-14 05:12 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] elarbee.livejournal.com
Fair enough. My friends live in the extremely liberal Marin county, and their neighbor has called the police when he saw them walking from their house to a lookout point two blocks away with beers in hand. I'm really only talking in very general, high-level terms.

Date: 2012-04-14 06:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] map-ka.livejournal.com
And that, children, is why I don't like liberals. ( The limousin kind, not the ACLU kind. ) You can probably guess whereI stand on the issue of "someone said something and that made someone else feel bad". Especially on the free for all internet forums.

There are things that should earn one a ban - e.g. using a bot and revealing others' personal information that is not openly available through google, etc. On the other hand, I have nothing against openly complaining to the moderators, I don't even count that as snitching. That post was unlocked, so even the banned ones had a chance to see who the accuser was and respond to the accusations.

Date: 2012-04-14 06:29 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] elarbee.livejournal.com
Wait, I agree with that! I mean, I don't want to blanket say that I dont' like liberals, but nothing else in your statement offends me!

Date: 2012-04-14 04:08 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mar-go202.livejournal.com
Ох, наш ребенок в последнее время так много орет сиреной - когда ее переодеваешь, меняешь подгузник или кормишь(!). Боюсь, соседи скоро "настучат" в социальные службы...

Date: 2012-04-14 04:17 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] elarbee.livejournal.com
Unlikely - everyone understands that babies cry. I've heard some Russians say that Americans like to call social services a lot, but really, I don't think anyone sane would do that if they didn't see something much worse than crying. And if they are insane, social services will not take them seriously and probably report them to police for making false reports. Ha, double стукачество!

Date: 2012-05-02 10:12 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] zapiens.livejournal.com
Насчет стукачества как э
Извините за длинную цитату (из "Дня Шакала" - беллетристика, да.)

There was one other factor that he could not have explained to Paris over thephone, and which he dreaded having to explain to Lebel face to face. Unbeknown tohim, some of his men came across this factor before midnight. A group of them wereinterviewing a farmer in his cottage two miles from the spot where the car was found.

He stood in the doorway in his nightshirt, pointedly refusing to invite the detectivesin. From his hand the paraffin lamp cast flickering splashes of light over the group.«Come on, Gaston, you drive along that road to market pretty often. Did you drivedown that road towards Egletons on Friday morning?»The peasant surveyed them through narrowed eyes.«Might have done.»«Well, did you or didn't you?»«Can't remember.»«Did you see a man on the road?»«I mind my own business.»«That's not what we're asking. Did you see a man?»«I saw nobody, nothing.»«A blond man, tall, athletic. Carrying three suitcases and a handgrip?, 'I sawnothing. Jai rien vu, to comprends.»

It went on for twenty minutes. At last they went, one of the detectives making ameticulous note in his book. The dogs snarled on the ends of their chains andsnapped at the policemen's legs, causing them to skip to one side and step in thecompost heap. The peasant watched them until they were back on the road and jolting away in their car. Then he slammed the door, kicked an inquisitive goat out ofthe way and clambered back into bed with his wife.

«That was the fellow you gave a lift to, wasn't it?» she asked. «What do they want with him?»“Dunno,» said Gaston, «but no one will every say Gaston Grosjean helped giveaway another creature to them.»He hawked and spat into the embers of the fire. «Sales flics.» He turned down the wick and blew out the light, swung his legs off the floor andpushed further into the cot against the ample form of his wife. «Good luck to you, mate, wherever you are.»

http://www.scribd.com/doc/75661980/The-Day-of-the-Jackal-by-Frederick-Forsyth

Date: 2012-07-03 12:33 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bazbezanchik.livejournal.com
Я не совсем по теме. Вот о чем наши родители думали, засовывая нас в первую попавшуюся школу? Я только недавно задусалась, ведь в Москве они мне школу выбирали и я даже экзамены в первый класс сдавала. А в Израиле меня засунули вместе с толпой марроканцев разхлебывать наш переезд. И твои вот, что не знали что плохой район?

Date: 2012-07-03 07:13 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] elarbee.livejournal.com
When we got to America, it was just about the worst time to enroll someone in school, so we didn't have much choice. I think it started the last week of August, we arrived on September 8, and I went to school a couple of weeks later, so enrollment is over, but it was unclear which schools had available spots because not all the students have settled in. We lived almost on the border of two good schools and both were full, and this one was the third closest. Really, my parents had absolutely no idea what makes a good school, but all SF schools (AFAIK) have ESL programs. I learned to understand English within 6 months and speak it within the year, so not having Russian-speakers around really helped! I did 0-level ESL in 6th grade, Advanced in 7th and I was out of the program and in Honors by 8th. And all of this really played into my favor when applying to a prestigious high school - I was big fish in small pond and even though I was not strong academically, I still ranked higher than many of my classmates. Seriously, in my school, we had black kids in ESL!

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